This disgusting article from Spiegel Online not only suggests that incest is no big deal, but that a 23 year old man having sex with his 16 year old mentally defective sister is perfectly natural! It starts out with some sanctimonious moralizing about incest that one would think was satire:
Must consensual sex between close relatives be punished? Germany’s highest court is about to rule whether incest will continue to result in a jail term. It is referring to the case of a brother and sister who have already had four children together.
At first sight they look like an ordinary couple, strolling through the park with their child and their dog. But when the two adults hug each other their physical similarities are unmistakable. They have the same pronounced nose, the same blue-green eyes, and the same thin lips. Patrick S. and Susan K. are brother and sister. They are an incestuous couple.
Since Susan became pregnant with Patrick’s child and their relationship became known to the authorities, they have been prosecuted repeatedly. Their case touches an age-old taboo, it’s exotic and tragic at the same time…
[…]
The key issue is whether the protection of a powerful moral taboo is sufficient justification for punishment. And whether there are reasons beyond that taboo for locking someone up, for depriving children of their father, a woman of her partner.
I guess nothing is more “exotic” than having sex with a close relative. Ugh. And notice how they paint a picture of a normal loving couple who just happen to be brother and sister. They’re just like you an me! Except for the mental illness and the years of abuse the young girl suffers from that is:
The father was a violent alcoholic. When Patrick was three years old his father grabbed him and held a knife to his throat. Neighbors called the police and Patrick was taken into care before being handed to foster parents near Potsdam. They adopted him but eventually told them they weren’t his real parents.
Patrick is a shy man. When he speaks, he frequently looks down at the floor, tells his story with few words and a soft voice. When he was 23 he went to the youth welfare office to find his real mother. A few days later she contacted him.
On May 20, 2000 he traveled to Leipzig to see his mother again for the first time in 20 years. His parents had separated long before and the mother had a new partner. The three other siblings have since died, and the 16-year-old girl staring at him wide-eyed across the living room table was his sister.
Susan K. is a bit slow mentally. She looks up to her brother because he seems so capable and experienced compared to her. He was only meant to stay for a week but Patrick’s mother asked him to stay longer. He said yes. “I felt drawn there,” he recalls. He gave up everything. A job in Berlin, a relationship with his girlfriend at the time, and moved into a four-room flat in an apartment block near Leipzig.
There was a stepbrother who had his own room, and Patrick and his sister shared a room. No one thought anything of it and the relationship at that time was still platonic(Right. That’s why he dumped his old lady to move in with his sister), says Patrick. Suddenly, on December 12, 2000, the mother died. She had heart problems but the exact cause of death was never found.
She just up and died huh? Weird. Maybe she had a heart attack when she figured out what kind of brother Patrick was to his mentally handicapped abuse victim sister.
But hey guys, incest isn’t that bad at all. In fact being against incest is just you’re hangup, man:
The phenomenon of incestuous desire is ages old, as is the taboo surrounding it. Napoleonic France stopped punishing incest in 1810 in the wake of the declaration of civil and human rights during French Revolution that the law only has the right to prohibit such actions that are damaging to society. It’s impossible, or at least very hard to prove that consensual incest does such damage.
German law since 1973 has stated that punishing incest serves to protect families from destructive influences. But social research shows that incest is more likely to be the result of family problems than the cause. Eugenic aspects, which the German statue book cites regarding sibling incest, are a poor justification for punishment. The risk of hereditary disease for offspring also exists with other people with genetic defects. Yet the German constitution would scarcely forbid such people from having children.
But wait here’s the punchline to that last sentence:
The first two children are slightly physically disabled and are a little slow mentally as well. They were both taken into foster care. They then had a third child which had a heart problem, but which is now completely healthy after a heart operation.
Doesn’t that above information invalidate the argument that inbreeding is no more likely to be detrimental to the off spring than any other group. By the gods this guy is having sex with his retarded sister and doesn’t have the decency to not get her pregnant four times!
At least three of the four children of this foul union will burden the German state for life, no doubt reproducing with each other creating more “physically disabled, mentally slow” Germans. And author Dietmar Hipp thinks this is O.K.?
From now on expect a link to this post whenever I mention “degenerate Europeans” because this is emblematic of European thinking and culture. The world might be better of when Europe collapses under the weight of Islamization. It couldn’t be worse.
The only disgusting thing is your opinion about incest.
This is an old post so I doubt you will respond, but I would be happy to explore my points if you do.
Being disgusted by the normalization of incest is the real problem here in your view? Let me guess-Muslim convert? Furry fetishist?
And man in his 20s having sex with a mentally disabled teen, sister or not, is also not disgusting according to you. So what is? What level of depravity to people have to reach before you’re disgusted? Necrophilia? Gang-rape? What is more disgusting than a man preying on his semi-retarded teen sister for unprotected sex?
And it is disgusted because? In your article you keep ranting about how it is disgusted but never could show a reason why.
“A bit slow mentally” doesn’t mean semi-retarded. Susan may have problem socially, but that doesn’t mean she can’t think for herself. She was not abused in any way shape or form from her brother. At least, there was zero evidence of it. From the article you quote, I can only see a real happy family, and you can only see there’s no sight of family break down when you watch their interview on youtube. Actually, the only thing she suffered is the fact that the society made up of people like you is looking down on their small family, and the fact that the government took 3 of their children from them to put in welfare house.
Biggest problems with penalizing incest:
1) Incest # Inbreeding
2) Inbreeding # pregnancy
3) Pregnancy # Their child are disabled. In fact, the probability of a child from an incestuous relationship is disabled is much less than if the parents have some disease. Or if they have AIDS. So why allow people with AIDS to get married and yet forbid incest?
4) Incest # Abuse/Pedophilia. They are consensual adults.
5) In case the man decides to go vasectomy (Patrick in this case did), what’s the problem now? Why still send him to prison?
There’s no way you can choose who you fall in love with. Just because you don’t fall in love with your siblings doesn’t mean others are disgusting if they do.
You’re pretending you need to explain why incest is disgusting. I guess bestiality is also something that needs to be explained to you. You claim that this woman who is still a teen and “mentally slow” isn’t being exploited by a degenerate because they’re a “happy family” but that ignores reality.
You think a mentally deficient teen from dysfunctional family having sex with (and impregnated by) a sibling who was abused and traumatized by his alcoholic father and is now mother to several children who have inherited diseases caused by inbreeding is some sort of romantic happy ending to s story? If this story was happening in the American Ozarks you’d be rightfully looking down your nose on the banjo picking redneck brother. But because they’re European you’re going to the mat arguing for a version of moral relativism that would literally mean no child in a family is safe from predation.
You then make red herring arguments about allowing people with AIDS to get married but no responsible couple with AIDS have ever started having children. Parents that have diseases that are 100% sure to be transferred to their children are (rightly) decried by society. But the fact is this is pointing to one form of bad behavior to justify another. Muslim countries still burn “witches’ does that make religious discrimination in the West less egregious when it happens?
You claim that the two in the case are consenting adults but they are not. The girl is a mentally deficient 16-year-old. The brother obviously took advantage of her mental deficiency which is why I concluded the part of the story that describes her motivation.
“Susan K. is a bit slow mentally. She looks up to her brother because he seems so capable and experienced compared to her.”-The brother used this misconception of him to initiate a sexual relationship with his own sister who he knew was “slow” and even if she wasn’t as a 16-year-old he knows she is too inexperienced to see that the man portrayed in the article as being severely socially awkward is in fact suffering from mental deficiencies himself.
The truth of this relationship is that the brother was so traumatized in his childhood that he feels incapable of pursuing relationships outside of his family. I would bet he was sexually abused by both his biological family and likely while in the state’s care. His inability at 23 to make eye contact with a stranger and speak to them as equals shows deep feelings of inadequacy. To mitigate those he has begun to seek out romantic relationships with teens who share his level of emotional development and his sister was a convenient target of opportunity but I will bet you good money that she will not be the last child he exploits sexually.
His relationship serves to give him power over the family he feels failed to protect him from his father and abandoned him. By bringing the sister into a relationship that will damage her chances of ever being able to pursue another, due to people’s natural disgust by it, he ensures that his sister is eternally connected to him and will have no other choice but to stay with him. You think this is love, but it is selfishness.
And while I didn’t go into it in this article, I find it suspicious that Patrick went looking for his mother when he was a maladjusted young man, found her and a sister he could exploit, and then the mother died of causes unknown.
But to you this all seems like some sort of storybook romance. A mentally deficient teen exploited sexually by her damaged brother shortly after her mother’s mysterious death, the same mother who allowed the brother to be viciously abused. She gives birth to four children, three of which have genetic defects that will haunt them for the rest of their lives. But you’re claiming society is being close minded to the beauty of depravity?
If brothers and sisters are allowed to “fall in love’ then why not fathers and daughters? Why not mothers and sons? When “Patrick” in the story above starts having sex with one of his children and claims they are “in love’ will it still be acceptable to you?
The family must be sacrosanct; it has to be a safe environment for children to grow into healthy adults. The family life of the two above proves that. The basic boundaries all family should have are that we don’t allow adults to prey on children sexually; we don’t allow family members to exploit deficiencies to satisfy their sexual urges. How is it arguable that to defend the healthy functioning of families puts me in the wrong?
Or my question to you is who raised you? Why would you consider a 23-year-old moving in on a mentally deficient teen acceptable even if they weren’t related? Why don’t you expect the role of the older brother to be that of protector instead of lover? I suspect this is a pretentious excessive in college freshman level post-modernism, but these are real people we’re talking about. A girl whose brother has used her to satisfy his own needs and then put her on display. Children with avoidable genetic defects. A man who will go on to commit more incest or molestation when given the chance. This isn’t love, and whoever has convinced you that it is doesn’t love you.
Wow a wall of text. Which is full of bullsh*t. I pity you, the self-righteous one who never could open his mind a little bit and think for other people. Let me guess, are you also against gay marriage? They are also unnatural, disgusting, etc… right?
Why compare AIDS/incest with “Muslim countries still burn “witches’/should the West do so?” That is exactly how you are arguing: posting something totally irrelevant and act as if it justifies your reasoning. Like the rest of your post.
The AIDS/disease/incest is a very valid argument that are actually used very frequently in most respectable debates about this subject, even in court. This asks for fairness: people in the same society should expect to get the same treatmeant. I am not comparing Western culture and Muslim or whatever other culture here, hello? Also, the number of disease with more % of being transferred to the child is much more numerous than you imagine.
“The family must be sacrosanct; it has to be a safe environment for children to grow into healthy adults.” You are under the illusion that legalizing incest would somehow increase the rate of child abuse in family. No? Because pedophila/rape are actually a much more punishable crime than incest itself already. And look at France, Japan, Sweden… and a dozen of other developed countries which have legalized incest. Do you see parents in these countries go rape their child all the time? NO.
“You claim that the two in the case are consenting adults but they are not. The girl is a mentally deficient 16-year-old.” GET YOUR FACT RIGHT DAMN IT! Do you know what is the age of sex consent in Germany? 14. And I am sure Susan is not any where as “mentally deficient” as you make her out to be (you must not have watched their youtube videos). Besides, suppose Susan is indeed retarded, then whether Patrick is her brother or not is irrelevant, as any boy who exploit a retarded person just to have sex is bad right? Incest or not, irrelevant.
You also need to know that the neighbors and friends of Patrick/Susan are very supportive of them. If Patrick did indeed exploit Susan, do you think people would still support them? If their family wasn’t happy, would you think so?
Clearly you are just frustrated at the idea of something “out of ordinary” in YOUR opinion and flush out a insulting article without thinking.
You should definitely come see this blog:
Edit
The blogger is also someone who think incest is disgusting and wrong, but at least he expressed himself in an intelligent and objective way. Unlike you, who sound like a teenager.
I’m leaving your blog, you seem incapable of produce a worthy debate, both in your knowledge of the subject and your way of arguing. But if you somehow want to pursue this, just post at that blog about your view of incest (I subscribed there), and I and the others over there will gladly respond.
Are you retarded? I support Gay marriage (or Civil Unions which President Bush offered as a compromise in his first term and Gays rejected) and to have some degenerate like you claim that people being gay is the same as sexually exploiting your “slow” teenage sister and getting her pregnant four times leading to at least three children with completely avoidable birth defects is exactly why I use the term degenerate on these things.
Are you really claiming being gay is the same as incest, exploitation and depravity?
You compared AIDS to incest, I pointed out that it’s a red herring argument. You can’t argue that so you create a straw man argument. You’re like a text book of Logic fallacies.
You argued in that case that you could find people doing something you consider wrong (AIDS victims getting married) so if I accept that I had to accept incest. That’s a child’s argument. I can find Muslim countries (as I said) doing horrible things but that doesn’t mean discrimination here is acceptable. You cannot point to bad behavior of one group to justify the bad behavior of another.
Saying AIDS victims and adults who prey on their teenage siblings are comparable is like saying people with cancer are similar to bank robbers because they both cost society money. What you’re doing is comparing people who are sick and dying with people who are sexually exploitative.
France and Sweden do in fact have higher rates of sexual abuse than America, and indeed both countries have entire areas where the police have ceded control to Muslims or gangs. I don’t see how pointing out crumbling societies with high incidents of rape and mayhem supports some theory about how much more civilized it would be to legalize incest.
The fact that Germany has an unseemly low age of consent doesn’t mean Susan is A) not a teen and B) not being exploited. The age of consent in many Mexican states is 12. Are you saying 12-year-olds aren’t children because Mexico allows adults to have sex with them?
But more to the point if you think the state can be an arbiter of morality (Susan isn’t a teen because the state says so) then why are you not willing to accept the state’s stance on incest?
And yes I think mildly retarded people are being taken advantage of when non-retarded people get them pregnant a bunch of times. I guess I’m a Puritan.
“You also need to know that the neighbors and friends of Patrick/Susan are very supportive of them. If Patrick did indeed exploit Susan, do you think people would still support them?” Yes. Just as Palestinians danced in the street when the Twin Towers were attacked. My post is about European degeneracy.
“If their family wasn’t happy, would you think so?” What? Their family isn’t happy. Their father was abusive, their mother just died as did all their siblings.
“Clearly you are just frustrated at the idea of something “out of ordinary†in YOUR opinion and flush out an insulting article without thinking.” Clearly you’re just frustrated by finding out people have morals. I’m a pagan (out of the ordinary) who blogs for a living (out of the ordinary) and Republican who supports gay marriage and I’m pro-choice (out of the ordinary) but you’re pretending I’m just not as cool as you (some pervert) because I happen to think exploiting “slow” teens for sex is disgusting. None of this is out of the ordinary; it’s in fact very ordinary. You’re a garden variety pervert looking for attention. What’s more ordinary than that?
And for someone so superior to me you’re sure interested in keeping in touch. What’s the matter? Lonely? I’ll not be frequenting (or promoting) your fellow scumbags blog. I’ll simply wait until you’re inevitable arrested for rape/necrophilia/incest or whatever it is you’re actually trying to defend and catch up with you on that post.
People paid you to write up crap like that? THAT is the degeneration of the society.
Like it or not, more and more countries are realizing that incest is not a crime. Even in the US, first cousin or second cousin incest are not banned anymore in a lot of states. Give it time, and the justice will win against ignorance. Just like how it did with homosexuality and interracial relationship in the past.
And no I don’t visit this blog because I feel lonely. I think you do though. Besides me, no one bothered to respond to this post of yours in over a year. I doubt people care that much about your blog then. I pity you.
You seem to care about it.
But mainly you seem to want to spread a fantasy you have about people thinking incest (and in the German case the exploitation of a mentally deficient child) is as acceptable as Homosexuality and interracial dating. This is not just offensive but it’s a paraphilia on your part, a sexual dysfunction you’re claiming is “normal” but is no more normal than believing disease is a product of the malign influence of the stars.
It is primitivism and neo-tribalism encouraged by moral relativism and in Europe no doubt Islamization. There was a time when incest was common (very few cultures ever approved of brothers mating with sisters however) and the cultures that promote it are, without exception, Muslim countries. They also punish rape victims, shall we do that too?
You claim to want debate (with some stranger on the web, where your anonymous depravity won’t marginalize you) but I notice you simply refuse to respond to my arguments against accepting incest as normal. I would respect you more if you simply told the truth. You would participate in incest in given the chance, you know it isn’t “normal” but you (mistakenly) think it’s the rest of the world that’s wrong. But instead you’re just throwing everything you can think of out there hoping something will stick.
If you want a bunch of people responding to things you comment on the web don’t troll post that a year old. If you think my blog is unimportant than leave. Why do you think you’re so important that the web has to rush to debate your every word?
Here is the truth about incest. A link to a fellow proponent of incest as acceptable:
http://www.wikisposure.com/Devholyjoke
And then there’s this person who practiced incest on his younger sister:
http://www.wikisposure.com/Oscar_Scott_Guzman
That’s the real company you keep on this subject. Now get lost.